INTUITION DREAMLINER
The Dreamliner works a little differently. It uses a lower density Ultralon material that is more like thick scuba diving neoprene than hardened rigid foam. It is not heated up and molded prior to use. Instead, the Dreamliner compresses and shapes to your foot at room temperature. Because the Dreamliner Ultralon is lower density than the standard Intuition foams, it’s also a bit lighter (185 grams, compared with 225 grams for the PowerWrap and 385 grams for the Tecnica stock liner).
The ankle pockets of the Dreamliner have very nice shaping and reinforcements to them, which give better-than-average heel hold, and the liner itself is very comfortable where I would normally have pressure issues. (I have several small bone protrusions scattered around my foot that have required extra work on literally every other liner I have ever used.)
The tongue of Dreamliner is soft and modestly supported by a thin plastic sheet. By comparison, the Tecnica stock liner has a full sheet of plastic that beefs up the flex but did cause me some discomfort on the top of my instep. I also found that the Dreamliner tongue would often get stuck in the overlap on my lower shell, and because the tongue is not that rigid, it was quite difficult to get out. A mild annoyance, but a legitimate gripe, in my opinion.
All in all, the Dreamliner is very comfortable, fits incredibly well out of the box, and offers nice performance upgrades (e.g. higher density, less pack-out over time) if your stock liner is worn out or causes you pain.
INTUITION DREAMLINER HV vs. MV
The Dreamliner is offered in two thicknesses: High Volume (thicker) and Medium Volume (thinner).
I would recommend the Dreamliner MV to someone with a 1.25cm or smaller shell fit, or to someone who prefers a roomier, more comfortable fit relative to an aggressive and snug fit. I would recommend the Dreamliner HV to anyone in a normal shell fit (1.25-1.5cm). But if you have more than 1.5cm shell fit, and are looking for a liner to boost the performance of the boot rather than just add comfort, I would look for a liner with higher density materials that will more completely lock your foot into place.
I would also recommend the Dreamliner to anyone looking to upgrade a backcountry (AT or TELE) boot, because of the lighter weight and instantaneous fitting process. The liner is warm, comfortable, and very light. It is also bends well while touring while in walk mode in an AT boot, and therefore skins nicely.
NEXT: POWERWRAP
What’s your technique to add C or L shaped pads to the liner/boot? I’ve developed quite a bit of loose heel in my rx130 LVs now that they’ve packed out.
I find INTUITION liner company quite unresponsive.
No answer to my messages and emails, requesting information
and their advice on what liner to use for certain model of boots??!!
I have DALBELLO PANTERRA ski boots , size 30.5, and wanted
a tight fit around my heel and to fill some space in my toe box, but still
allowing enough space around the foot arch…
the boot shell is running a bit long.. so need probably HV
Without their help.. I might risk it, and try DREAMLINER HV??!!
just pull the adhesive backing and stick them on. you could use barge cement if you really wanted, but unless you take your liners in and out of the shell everyday, i would not bother.
Nice comparison write-up…helps a lot!
What sizes were the Intuition liners you tested in your size 27.5 shells? I’ve read that many people get an Intuition liner that is 1 to 1.5 sizes larger than the shell size (before heat molding). Would you recommend a different size for the Dreamliners, which are not heat molded?
hi ross, thank you for the question. I would personally strongly suggest matching the liner size to the shell size UNLESS you are actively looking to take up volume and then size up 1 liner. thanks!
Could you elaborate on the flex of the Race liner, especially vs the Power Wrap? Perhaps compared to the stock Cochise 2011/12 liner also?
hi robin, thanks for the question. stiffness is sort of hard to really accurately quantify, since there are so many other variables as well (tightness of buckles, heel hold, etc) but i would say that the stock liner and power wrap are similar and the race is slightly softer. hopefully that is helpfully.
This question is about the end of article – boot fitting.
Isn’t easily to measure feet and look what size is shell (inside), and than subtract those values.
Example: my feet is 28.5 and my Dynafit Zzero4 inside shell measurement is 305. This is 2cm or 0.78 in.
But when I use Your method I don’t know does to measure distance between ahil tendon (3.5cm) and Shell or between heel and shell (2.5cm), because this values isn’t equal.
All in all
I’ve wondering do I buy large boot?
Thanks
Hi ZeljkoN, a few things, typically if you foot measures 28.5cm in total length, you should at least start by trying on a 28.5 sized boot, and go from there. a 30.5cm boot is likely too big. you would shell-fit at the heel, the smallest distance between your foot and shell. when in doubt, always go to a boot fitter. cheers!
I’ve measured 1.18 in (3cm) between hell and shall, Am I right: a size smaller shell would be about 1cm shorter, which means it’ll be 2 cm (0.78 in). What do You recommend to me?
I’m little confused about that I’ll use my boot for ski touring (ascending in it also), and this guide also confused me: http://www.evo.com/ski-boot-fitting-guide-how-to-try-on-your-new-ski-boots.aspx
They sad that distance between hell and shell must be ½ – 1 ½ inches….
Thanks
zeljkon- i really cannot say if there are any other underlying issue/foot discrepancies, etc, so i would strongly go into a real, dedicated boot fitter… but simply put 3cm shell fit is at least 1 size, and potentially 2 sizes too big of a boot.
I purchase size 29 because size 29.5 doesn’t on stock.
What is the main difference between this two size?
Thanks
ZeljkoN – depending on the brand. a 29 and 29.5 boot are the same thing. same liner, same shell.
An informative piece. Thanks.
I disagree with your assertion that it’s imperative to have an orthotic. Perhaps you mean footbed?
An orthosis is a corrective device prescribed by a specialist. Some skiers will need an orthotic footbed; many will not.
Greetings Ziggy,
I would argue that all skiers would likely do better with a trim-to-fit footbed than the stock footbed.
But assuming a proper shell-fit and adequate compression, almost every high-performance skier would benefit from a custom made footbed (aka orthotic) that properly holds their foot in place prior to applying this compression, and then gives the foot a proper athletic position in-which to add a liner to.
anyhow, just my opinion.
cheers!
Hi Marshal, I saw that prior to that review you where on a PowerWrap for 150 days. Did that change after the review? I am asking cause I’m on PowerWrap and have been for a long time (mostly for AT) and I am wondering if any of the other models could potentially be an improvement on perfection…
Hi There Pierre,
I have not gotten a chance to order up a new set of powerwraps since my last pair was retired. They ski awesome, and I certainly intend to. at the front end of this season I am testing a pair of Zipfit GARA liners, which is an entirely different beast than the intuitions.
not sure if that helps at all…?
-marshal
Thanks Marshal, I think it does. What I get is that your favorite (for your own usage) is still Power Wrap even after testing Pro Tour and the others. Did I get that right?
hi pierre, i guess i can’t really answer that directly… it really depends on the usage. the power wrap offers the most “alpine” feel. the dreamiliner is the most comfortable about of the box, and the tongue liners are best for skinning.
if you are after a full alpine feel, then yes, the power wrap is the correct tool for the job.
I was at shop today and they recommended the Pro Tour. I think because that is what I do and they have the name “tour” on them… if you catch my drift. The shop wasn’t licensed to sell the Dreamliner so didn’t know anything about them. Question: Do you lace liners and leave them laced for touring and riding? My buddies scoff at the idea but why would liners have laces if they aren’t to be used? The only stupid question is the one not asked right :)
hi jon-
I would suggest using the laces.
correct form with laced liners is to put your foot into the liner before its into the boot, lace it tight, then slide the liner into the shell and buckle up. I tend the leave the liners laced tight while skiing and leave them loose to maximize liner flex while touring.
the dreamliner requires no liscence. you just buy them and start skiing them. no need to heat or foam or anything.
hope that helps?
-m
I noticed you mentioned the Zip Fit liners as being a totally different beast. Could you elaborate on that thought. I have been looking at the Zip Fit liners and came across the Intuitions. Now I am having trouble deciding. I haven’t seen any posts comparing the two.
Thanks
Hi Dan,
great question, thanks.
I actually am preparing a big Zipfit liner review coming in the next month or so.
the punch line is that the INTUITION and ZIPFIT are very different beasts, and someone that loves zip fit will likely not love intuition. they fix different problems, ski different, etc.
not sure what, specifically you are after, but yeah, very different liners.
hopefully that helps in some small way?
-marshal
Hi Marshal… thanks for the great review… just the information I was looking for. Couple questions though…
You mention above to that you strongly recommend matching the boot shell size to the liner size… so I’m guessing I should get a 25 liner to go in my 25.5 Cochise 120’s?
What’s the best method in measuring the gap between your heal and the back of the boot? It looks like 1.75cm… but I’d like to be more precise in order to get the right volume liner.
Many thanks,
Rich
hi rich,
the easiest way to measure your heel-gap is to use a pen as the spacer. say a ball point bic pen, a sharpie and a hi-lighter.
cheers!
Thank you Marshal!!
Looks like I have 1 sharpie of gap… about 1.1 to 1.2 cm according to my measurement of the sharpie (less than I thought). I’ll be going with the medium volume 25 Dreamliner. Thanks again for this awesome article!!
Rich
Update – I was convinced I needed a new liners and was going to pull the trigger on the dream liner for my Axon Garmont boots. Then it occurred to me that the Dream liners come with laces and I had never laced up my Garmont liners. They had lace hooks but didn’t come with laces. I laced them up and shazam all hot spots and shin knock is gone. None of my buddies used laces. They said it wasn’t necessary. It was. They said to have the shop compress the liner at the hot spots…. didn’t help much. They said laces would limit touring mobility. It didn’t. They just assumed pain and calluses are part of the game. It’s not. Two of them now laced up and got the same results as me. Happy touring :)
great feedback, nice!
i agree. lace up liners remove any ability for your foot to slide in the liner. super underrated option. i am getting more and more into lace up liners.
who cares if it takes 30 seconds longer to put your boot on and take it off than normal… which is the chief complaint. whatever… it skis better. all i care about!
-m
Thanks for the great site and reviews of Intuition and Cochise Pro Light. I’ve been using thermo wrap liners for about 15 years. I have a size 30 Raichle Thermoflex in a 27 shell Technica Icon XT to help fill volume on my very low volume foot. Several hundred days in this setup (I doubled down on both the boot and liner when I found a combo that worked), but now changing over to the Technica Cochise Pro Light with a fairly lightly used Scarpa ‘Power Wrap’ liner out of some Scarpa Denails.
Do you know how much the Scarpa liner varies from the Intuition Power Wrap?
One comment on skiing wrap liners is they tend to but me more upright due to more material in front of the shin than a tounge style liner. Even with spoilers I’m not quite there so I use a light piece of foam (Carhartt insertable knee pads work great) to balance out the forward lean, and also eliminate any boot cuff lag. Might give the lace up liners a try as my system probably shortens the stride skinning.
Hello,
Again thanks for the great review.
Just to sum it up, you suggest to first of course get a ski boot that fits as well as possible, rather sizing down than up, getting a custom footbed, and if there are problems with the fit, get after-market liners, and if you’re still having problems, get the shell punched out, right?
And by the way, did you still modify the High Volume Dreamliner to increase heel hold?
Thanks,
Mikael
hi mikael,
i would alway suggest getting the correct boot to start with, indeed.
the footbeds that come in ski boots are not designed to be skied in. they are to offer the correct thickness for once a custom foot bed is installed. all skiers should be in at least semi-custom footbeds.
a liner will not tell you if a shell needs to be punched. a shell tells you if a shell needs to be punched.
an aftermarket liner is added to specifically address something about performance of the boot (heel hold, weight, flex while touring, whatever your needs are).
hope that helps?
Thanks for a very detailed and informative article. I just paid $50 for a size 8 Mondo 26 Intuition liner (never heated, but used a demo on a shelf). I haven’t heated it yet. It feels pretty tight against my bare toes. My normal ski boots are Nordica GTS 12 size 260-275 boot shell , and size 26.5 liner. My normal shoe size is 9 – 9 1/2. Do you think the liner will stretch out when heated? I’d like to make it work because it’s a heck of a lot cheaper than buying it at a boot fitter. But if you think it is a waste of time, I’d just resell it on ebay or something….. Thanks!
hi mike,
un-molded is the highest volume an intuition liner will ever be. when you mold it, you make it thinner. you can make it literally as thin as a t-shirt if you really wanted to. i think you just need to mold the thing, and see how it fits. i would for sure have a bootfitter do it if there is any concern about getting the right fit, but double toe-caps will create more space in the toe-box.
cheers!
Anybody have any experience with the pro tongue? I’m wondering how it compares with the hd race.
mac, the HD race is one of the stiffest liners intuition makes. the pro tour is one of the softest.
Thanks for the reply. I’m aware of that, but I’m not interested in the pro tour. It’s the Pro “Tongue” that I’m interested in. I’ve spent the last couple weeks trying to find info, but I haven’t been able to find much. Too new maybe…
I guess more specifically, I’m wondering how the instep and heel hold compare. The description of the hd race makes it appealing to me because they say its good for large insteps. I have a very high arch and large instep. This is an area that has troubled me in the past.
Specifically, I wondering about how they differ in the instep and heel hold. I have a large instep and high arch and value a tight heel pocket.
The HD race is lower volume overall (intuition calls it LV) than the power tongue is medium volume (MV). so indeed it gives more space in the toe-box, instep, ankle, etc.
The HD race is about the same stiffness in the cuff as the power tongue.
The HD race has equivalent to slightly better heel hold (IMO) due to the Power Tongue (and power tour and dreamliner) exterior material being more slippery.
all-in-all they are basically the same foam, just emphasize different fit needs.
cheers.
could you elaborate a more on what a c or l shaped pad is?
also id like to use the powerwrap to take up space in a pair of spectres but am a bit concerned about rearward flex. what do you think has made it a non issue for you?
thanks very much
Hi, all the stats you mention at the beginning of the article are virtually identical to mine. 6’2″, 210lbs, 27.5 boot, size 10.5-11 street shoe size. I’m in my early 40s, wouldn’t consider myself athletic, but can ski for 6 hours in a day. 4 seasons of ski experience. Very comfortable on greens and blues, but generally take blues more cautiously. Never attempted a black diamond.
Anyways, I bought used ski boots at a consignment store that probably looked like last seasons local ski resort rentals, as they had a ton of them. I’ve used them for 3 seasons now, and this past weekend, I had an amazing time at Sun Peaks where I skied longer and harder than ever before. But after the first night, two of my toes were numb in my left foot, and during the 2nd day of skiing, I developed exceptional amounts of pain that forced me to stop skiing. I took a long lunch, then took it easy in the 2nd half of the day, but unfortunately was short-lived and had to stop because of the pain.
So I’m pretty sure I need new boots, and living in Vancouver, I’ve been recommended to check out Intuition liners. I do value comfort over precision… my 27.5 boots seems to squash my high arches. My toes are still numb after 3 days and the bottom of my left foot is a little tender when I walk on it… not too much.
Kind of sounds like Dreamliner might be good for me, but I do value the extra durability of the Powerwrap. But maybe the powerwrap would work well in a roughly 85 stiffness boot? I think my current boots are 70. Do you have any thoughts, or perhaps recommendations for boot brands that best cater to wide feet and high arches?
So replying to myself, I’ve just completed the whole process and learned a lot. First thing, the Dreamliner certainly has to be heat molded and durability is pretty much the same all across the board, in fact all of the variations use the exact same foam inside. The key differences are the volume and liner design (some are stiffer than others). Huge error in the review. Anyways, I have high volume feet and thus my *only* option was the Dreamliner LV liner, which to me feels like a padded paradise. Getting fitted properly can require multiple trips. You need to be in a mindset of iteration, and best to test out boots on a local mountain for a couple hours. Nothing high commitment. Totally worth the effort in the end.
First trip to Intuition
I first purchased a set of boots at 26.5 that were too narrow for my feet. I got the liner heatfitted inside, and everything was way too tight. Even the most low volume liner is still like double the stock liner in a boot. But the consensus was to return them and purchase something else — ended up with Salomon XPro 100’s which suited my high arches and wide feet. Even then my feet were still slightly too wide (108mm), but boot punching was an option. Little over $300CDN with heat molding.
2nd trip to Intuition
Returned with new boots. Felt okay, and suggested I ski on them before committing to a boot punch. Went to Whistler and found the liners were way too tight and my feet felt literally crushed inside. I stopped multiple times and eventually loosened the boot as much as possible and it was still too tight. There’s one thing putting them on and walking around a bit. Skiing on them is a completely different experience. But that 2nd trip to Intuition validated that the new shells were the right shells.
3rd trip to Intuition
He explored my shells more, and the top of my arches and outside toes were the biggest pressure points. He explored inside the boot and removed hard plastic bottoms, and decided to grind them out to give me a few more mm of clearance, and punched out my boots. I’d have to return a few days later after the work was done to do a more aggressive heat liner treatment so we can pack it down a maximum amount.
4th trip to Intuition
Collected the boots, put them on, immediately way more comfortable. Cost $50 to do the work to sculpt my boots to my foot (grinding and punching). Performed a super aggressive heat molding and clamped those boots down as much as humanly possible. 10 minutes later, we pulled everything off, let my feet breath for a bit.
Now I have what I call “ski slippers”. My feet go right into the boots, and I have all the control I need to tighten or loosen my settings. Now the next step is to ski on them, but I feel confident I have a good fit now.
In the end, I trusted his judgement. He just knows the right liner for the right feet. This isn’t like buying a computer. He’ll just matter of fact tell you what liners are best for you. I met others getting fitted during my series of trips and many had opposite problems, such as very long feet that were low volume. And those are the types of feet that need high volume liners with reinforcements.
Another option for me would have been to move up a size, and that would give me more space, but I would need a higher volume liner to fill it out… but punching out the width of the boot was the real way to go. Very happy that I just listened to the expert.
In the end I spent about $800CDN all in — boots, liners, and professional fitting. Got a good deal on the boots ($400CDN after taxes).
Hi, thanks for a great article!
I have a pressure point on my right instep (more precisely on the medial cuneiform, from what I can google), that hurts so much that I can’t ski, the left foot is all good.
I visited a bootfitter, not much he could/wanted to do, he advised me to try new liners first. So I could need some help with choosing a new one.
Some specs:
Dynafit Mercury, 27.5 mondopoint, normal shell fit (just under ~1.5cm), standard liners, fairly new to touring but have some years with regular alpine.
Hi Johan,
If the pain is from too much pressure in a localized spot, the fastest way to relieve pain from a liner is to pull the liner from the shell, locate and mark the pain point (tape, marker, etc), put something hard inside the liner (baseball, trailer hitch ball etc) and carefully hammering that spot will compress and thin the foam.
Hope that is helpful.
Yes, but the problem is that it’s virtually nothing to compress, unfortunately.
Hi Johan,
Just to verify, the boot fitter can’t stretch the boot for more space? its a little tougher with a cabrio shell, but not impossible in my experience.
good luck!
We have already stretched the width approx. 4 mm on both shells, from the second buckle forward to the toes. Width-wise it’s perfect in my opinion. I also use custom footbeds to support the feet.
Now I’m considering the Powerwrap, Pro Tongue and Pro Tour. I’m a bit skeptic to the tongue-liners as I’m struggling with them now, but the Pro Tongue has a 2 mm sole vs the 9 mm sole to Powerwrap. But with the Powerwrap I might get more “cushioning”. I don’t know really.
I would like to replace the OEM liner in a pair of Lange Super Blaster 120s and have over an inch of shell space behind my heel. Which liner is most appropriate if I want to maintain the same flex pattern of the boot? The stock liner has a thin plastic sheet that wraps around the back of the liner from cuff to just above the ankle, plus slightly heavier plastic on the front of the tongue. My first instinct is to choose the Dreamliner HV but only because of the volume I need to take up. However, I don’t want the boot to flex any softer nor do I want to boost it too stiff. 130 would be ok but I don’t understand how much something like the Powerwrap would increase flex. Any help?? Thanks.
Dude! I’m in the exact same situation, maybe the only difference is that I think the shell may be a wide too. Hopefully someone can respond with a recommendation. If not, I’m headed to a very reputable shop that sells Intuition liners and will post what they recommend.
I found a possible answer to the stiffness question in Marshal’s article on ZipFit GARA: “I would estimate that the ZipFit liner adds about 10 points of stiffness compared to a stock plastic reinforced liner (such as the stock Lange liner), and about 20 points of stiffness compared to an Intuition tongue-style liner that is only foam.”
So an Intuition liner would reduce the stiffness on a Lange boot by about 10 points?
I wound up buying the Dreamliner HV after contacting Intuition directly. This was the one they recommended after giving them the same description as above. I found the flex to change minimally and whatever increase in flex they provided was barely noticeable. From a fit standpoint, the liners helped quite a bit and the boots overall were more comfortable and warmer after thermo-molding them. None of this however is to say that it completely fixed the problem, it just made them slightly more manageable. In the end, the fit was just too sloppy to fix with a liner swap and I’ve since bought a new pair of boots and dropped a full shell size.
I visited 3 shops and all recommended new boots vice trying the fill the extra space with a liner, ironically 2 of the shops recommended the same size after measuring my feet. I settled on the Techica Cochise in the same size as my Langes, the CAS liner in these boots securely held my ankles right out of the box, they did require some punching and adding some liner in certain spots. They fit great, hopefully the liner holds out and don’t get sloppy on me after getting packed out…
Anyone know which liner holds less heat, which is cooler. I don’t have a problem with cold, but with overheating and sweating while touring. My current intuition liners that came with the Maestrale RS are swampy in anything about 10 degrees for me.
Hi , appreciate some guidance on intuition liners Dreamliner and Luxury. I purchased new atomic hawx magna boots size 30 but realized that I need half or almost one size down. Do you guys think I can achieve it by buying one of these two liners HV ? What do you recommend. Thx Mike
Hello, I recently got a new pair of head raptor 140 boots and tried the intuition power wrap liners because that is what I have used in the past in my salomon boots but the heads with the Power wrap is just too tight. would the intuition plug liner for head raptor be a better fit?