Reviewing the News w/ Cody Townsend (December 2022) (Ep.242)

25 comments on “Reviewing the News w/ Cody Townsend (December 2022) (Ep.242)”

1. Couldn’t disagree more about cost of a single day ticket being a red herring. The cost of starting to ski and getting into the sport is prohibitive. If say you want inclusion and a diversity a reasonable single day ticket price is important to getting new skiers into the sport. If it is on US land there does need to be government intervention

2. I’m glad my request for comments regarding Jonathan’s dumb takes was fulfilled.

   • Cody and Brendan, you both need to listen to Blister Podcast episode 219. Will lays out the way.

3. Hey guys, thought I’d give my 2 cents on the “cost of skiing” topic. Quick precursor; I did listen to ep. 219 and agree that the “community ski hill” model is simply awesome. Nonetheless, these operations are few and far between. (Which begs more questions…) Here in Canada, the only similar ones I’m aware of (not an expert) lie east of the Rockies in the prairies, where a handful of seriously tiny ski hills operate in river valleys. The problem with these areas is that they are very limited by terrain (<100m vert) and located often in the literal middle of nowhere, meaning that they are only reasonably accessible to very few people.
   With that out of the way; my personal experience leads me disagree with the whole red herring notion. I’ve been skiing my whole life, and in the last 10ish years, I’ve gravitated more toward backcountry skiing. I don’t nab enough resort days each season to justify a seasons pass but still find myself shelling out upwards of $100/day to ski at the hill 2 or 3 times a year (mid-week pow day, hang with non-backcountry friends, get reps in at the start of the season etc.). As a budget-aware student, these prices really do influence whether or not I ski at the hill, and frankly it sucks to say no to a day out because of the steep price tag.
   Just my experience. Everybody has a different story but this topic hit home with me so I thought I’d share.

   PS: Mtn town relationship advice really delivered, not sure about all the advice but it was entertaining nonetheless! As a Canadian I also love the “most Canadian news” segment, I certainly have a few pine marten stories but will spare them for today.

4. I think there’s probably a way to cover both the mega-pass and the day ticket issue buy offering a “beginner day pass” or “beginner rental and lesson package” at a steep discount that only gives you access to a couple of green chairs/magic carpets (Diamond Peak and Mt. Rose in Tahoe do versions of this) so you can find out if this is something you want to keep doing. Tahoe might be a bad example though since you’ve got many choices of mountain instead of being locked in to only one resort geographically.

5. I would like the following relationship advice from Cody: Why, if at all, should I break up my current relationship with the former model of the Salomon MTN 95 and start a new relationship with the current Salomon MTN 96 Carbon :-)

   PS: very sorry to hear about your health troubles. I can relate and hope you get well soon!

   • Hi, did you find any comparisson of these two models? I just lost my MTN 95 and I am wondering if I should buy them again or go for the new model 96 Carbon.

6. Check out this link to disable crash detection on the iphone 14: https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/manage-crash-detection-iph948a628e9/ios

7. Jonathan and Cody –
   With your love of weird Canadian things, and segment about what you’re watching, you must check out the show Letterkenny. It’s Canadian comedy gold. It takes a bit to catch up with the Canadian slang (subtitles can help) but with an little investment you will be rewarded with belly laughs and endlessly quotable lines to banter with. Skip s1e3, but otherwise I implore you to dig in and enjoy. Hope to hear you talk about it on reviewing the news soon.

8. WRT to ticket prices – In such a boom/bust industry like ski resorts, day-of purchases are probably their least favorite way to sell access. There are so many ways to get tickets at less than walk-up-to-ticket-booth prices, that it really is a red herring to point at that one price point as the key indicator. Whistler is a great example where day tickets cost $209 (online next day ticket purchase, so that is likely discounted from ticket booth prices), but if you buy a multi day ticket in advance, you can usually get ~$100/day tickets. Sure, this requires a little forethought/investment, but if you’re trying to get someone to try skiing for the first time, doing it on a whim and just showing up to buy a single ticket isn’t necessarily the best route to go about it either.

   WRT to ski skill level – I think Jonathan was more in line with what I believe – finding someone at your same level is already hard enough as it is without throwing romance into the mix. And finding a quality partner that has the same general interests/life goals/beliefs/etc is hard as well and you’re likely doing yourself a disservice conflating the two as equally important. There are multiple ways to deal w/ the differing skill level, whether that involves you just taking it easy and skiing with them sometimes, getting them lessons, or splitting up for some amount of time to go ride your respective areas/friends. It was shitty the ex just left her in the dust cause she wasn’t as good as him. I invested the time/money/effort in getting my new partner into skiing and after 2 seasons she’s ripping harder than most of our friends, and it’s been such a great experience seeing her grow and enjoy the progression of the sport. I wouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water if your skill levels don’t line up, but it’s just another area in relationships where you have to decide if you want to invest your resources to make it work, just like many other areas of relationships.

   This has gotten way too long so I’ll just add that White Lotus is great and I was in the same boat watching season one as cotton candy entertainment, but watched it again when my partner wanted to see it and there was so much more going on than I initially noticed. Would recommend rewatching or even just watching some of the analysis/behind-the-scenes videos on youtube to really dig into the nuances of the show.

   Cheers and happy new year!

9. 1. While the price of a lift ticket at a mega resort may be a red herring, the increasing prices at local hills, where many non-wealthy families learn to ski, is not. They are competing for the same labor, have the same issues with housing, inflation etc. as the megas, but lack the hedge and fail safe that the mega pass provides
   2. If there is space for government involvement, it is finding ways to share some of the profit of the megas with the local hills, tax breaks, etc. to keep these places affordable.
   3. I think skiing ability level matters less in a relationship than enthusiasm/desire to improve. My wife and son are both better skiers than me, but we are all equally passionate about it and mix skiing together with skiing with others of similar ability. Otoh I’m a better cyclist than they are and neither really enjoy it. It became clear early on that dragging them along out of some obligation to togetherness made everyone miserable.

10. Cody,
    I’m one of the 99 other listeners. Glad you take the time to chat with Jonathan for the 100 listeners!
    Happy New Years gentlemen!

    Mike

11. Just adding to what’s already been said, single day lift ticket prices aren’t a red herring. These ski area owners/operators should be called out for their greed.

    Infinite growth (the expectation of ski area owners) cannot happen with finite resources (mountain terrain, snow). Without oversight from government, the slopes will be left to wealthier and wealthier occupants, if there’s any snow at all. Calling exorbitant ticket prices a red herring is a remarkable lack of self awareness from a privileged community — those who can afford to spend the day on public land that was mostly taken from less privileged communities (but that’s another story).

12. I enjoy searching “skiing” on Maps in random parts of the country and seeing what different cities and states have to offer. Is it just me or does Colorado (& Western states generally) have far too few ski areas compared to the Midwest or East coast?

    When you search “skiing” around an East Coast or Midwestern state, there are dozens of small options, many that are much more convenient for local folks than, say, fighting I-70 for 2 hours. I know there are places like Monarch, Cooper, Loveland, and Wolf Creek, but even so, why does the East have that huge density of little local hills and the West generally doesn’t?

13. Reading the fine print, many resorts offer a way to learn-your-turns without plunking down over $100 for a day pass or $500 for a season pass. There are other choices, some examples:
    -Alta has a $99 SEASON PASS….the catch is it’s for the beginner lift only, and for the last 1.5 hours of the day. But that’s perfect for picking up your kids at school and jetting up there for a few turns. Most of the traffic that time of day is headed down canyon, and there is plenty of parking by then. Edit: looks like the price went up this year for the adults. https://www.alta.com/tickets-and-passes/sunnyside-at-3-program
    Anyway, that’s how I taught my wife to ski (I think it was $60 that year).
    -Utah 5th graders get a season pass for 45 days total at most UT resorts (3 days each) for $55. This is managed through Ski Utah, and I doubt it’s supported by gov’t subsidy.
    -My local hill (on the Indy Pass list) charges $60 for a day pass ($55 on sale), and $375 for a season pass for some great skiing. There are a lot of these Mom-n-Pop resorts out there, but yeah they are becoming more rare. Operating on public land and running the business like a non-profit helps. Family owned, they are more about providing a service than making a buck. They offer a 12 ride punch-card for their beginner lift for $30. It’s usable across multiple days and even seasons. Most of the time the lifties don’t even bother to punch it. An all-day pass for the surface lifts is $15, or $30 for the beginner lift.
    -Night skiing is generally much cheaper than day skiing at most resorts, and can be a lot of fun.
    -I’ve been to RotaRun near Sun Valley (thanks for the tip) and was impressed with the community-run model they employ. It think most of the workers are volunteers? If every town had a ski hill like this it would be a dream….but someone else has to build it first, then go out of business and the community comes along and picks up the pieces. The up-front investment is just too great without a profit motive. Most municipalities, even “ski towns”, are going to find it impossible to invest in a new operation. The startup costs and permit hurdles are just too great.
    As far as nationalizing ski areas, no- just no. Nationalization of anything never works out well, especially in the U.S.

14. Amen to Jonathan re: grace under pressure as key metric for partners (friends, and colleagues, too). But, you are a Marcus Aurelius guy, so that’s consistent.

    It also helps to worship at the same “church”. Whatever your church happens to be: ideas, endorphins, mountains, adrenaline. Alignment about big stuff gets you through a lot.

    Have you guys talked about “Barbarian Days” by William Finnegan? Surfing, relationships, exploring the world, and it won the Pulitzer? So good.

15. With respect to the FTC (or the DOJ, or State AGs)–I suspect Vail is well aware of this risk and has almost certainly had discussions with government personnel and/or already faced confidential probes.

    Of note, they haven’t purchased a western resort in years; last was Crested Butte in 2018. Their domestic expansion has mostly been in midwestern and smaller east-coast resorts. Most of this is likely to drive Epic pass sales. If your local hill takes Epic, it dramatically increases the odds that your 1 or 2 ski vacations will be to Vail-owned properties. And those tourists are the big money-makers since they pay for lodging, food, lessons, etc.

    I find it pretty unlikely that Vail wouldn’t have bought a single resort in the western half of the country in the last 5 years if they thought they could get away with it. Either they’ve already been told by the government not to do it, or their lawyers have told they they will almost certainly face an expensive fight if they try to. Plenty of independent or smaller hills that are still up for grabs and could be used to drive vacation traffic. E.g. take over Snowbowl in Missoula and suddenly a bunch of people are taking spring break vacations to Epic Pass properties rather than driving to Big Sky or Jackson Hole.

16. Hey guys, great reviewing the news episode! The only thing I was a bit bummed about is that I was really hoping to hear both of your thoughts on the Garmin Inreach rescue controversy involving Jon Conti (YouTuber) and the Idaho County Sherrif dept. I really thought about emailing and suggesting it as a topic, but I figured “nah this seems pretty big and I’m sure a bunch of other people have already sent it to them”. Lesson learned to suggest stuff anyways!

    Just in case you haven’t seen it yet, here’s the link to Jon Conti’s video https://youtu.be/LFLl9q-bEgk . There’s definitely a lot of nuance to the situation, and I think regardless of “right and wrong” judgments it’s pretty eye opening and brings up a lot of good discussion questions.

17. WRT ticket prices. I think it’s gotten out of control. I have an Epic pass this year, family works at two Epic resorts, and we do a family trip to an Epic resort. In the past 3 weeks friends have wanted to ski a non Epic resorts, Alpine Meadows and Holiday Valley. It was $200(ish) and $98 a day to ski. I’m lucky I could swing it once, but it doesn’t make sense past that. Yeah I could have bought a $1000 Ikon pass, but I was not planning on going to go to an Ikon resort until a college buddy I hadn’t seen in 10 years wanted to meet for the day at Alpine Meadow. Holiday Valley fits the model for small community 700ft ridge, and it was $98 a day. They draw people from Toronto, Buffalo, Cleveland, Pittsburg, Erie, and Rochester, and are charging $98 a day?! I’ve heard the owners are grumpy that skier days are down, yet they are charging $98 a day?

    Sorry for the rant, yes some season passes are cheaper then ever before, but there are way too many what ifs that are creating divides/keeping people from skiing.

    Also, anyone who pays retail for skis and gear needs to take some time to do 10 min of research and you can find very lightly used gear for 50+% off. I have never bought used boots, but every other piece of gear can be found for a lot less if you are ok with lightly used gear.

18. Regarding single-day lift ticket prices, I disagree it’s a red herring. What if Epic or Ikon makes most sense based on your location or situation, but the opposite is true for a friend? It’s cost prohibitive to do a day with your friend at their resort or vice versa. Now there are no friends on powder days and it’s not because of my unscrupulous principles but because of Vail’s and Alterra’s.

    Also, by making season passes the only economically viable solution for multiple days, it makes it financially unfeasible to spread the wealth amongst Epic/Alterra and independent resorts. I like variety, but I can only afford to go to one resort a year now.

19. Hey guys,
    First time hopping into the comment section, but Jonathan was so freakin wrong about how large of a detriment to the industry day pass prices can be. Jonathan definitely sounds like someone who grew up getting a season pass, all of his friends had and have season passes, therefore with season pass prices down who gives a shit about day tickets right? Well, like Cody was sayin, Mr Crested Butte, it creates an incredibly expensive barrier to entry for the sport. A large portion of my friends have gotten into skiing as an adult, and I commend their dedication because skiing is an insanely expensive thing to suck at.
    Think about it. You’re in your 20’s and maybe have a few hundred dollars of disposable income. Ski rental is going to cost about 75 bucks for the day. If you’re trying to commit, and you’re buying equipment you’ve spent at least 400 bucks. Probably gotta buy a helmet, goggles, gloves, layers. Another 300 bucks. Gotta fill up the gas tank, 60 bucks. Oh, Pay for the parking pass. We are obviously well past our disposable income at this point. Then you have to pay 120 bucks (Mt Hood prices) for the day just to be standing at the bottom of the hill ready to go.
    Then you get up there, and spend a ton of time falling, and feeling awkward, and rolling around in the snow, and getting kinda hurt.
    It’s hard for people to spend 500 to over 1000 bucks to suck at something. Especially when you have to cut out other parts of their budget to try and make it happen. We all know it takes days of being up there before anything really starts to click, and every time you fork over another 100+ bucks it just adds insult to injury.
    The same goes for any low-income person or family. Who wants to spend what little spare cash they have to go do something that is incredibly awkward when you first start?
    Mega resorts charging 200+ prices also gives cover to medium-sized resorts like Whitefish or Mt Hood Meadows to charge 130+, and down the line, essentially raising the day pass price for the entire industry.
    I’m not the most eloquent dude, but those day pass prices aren’t so much of a red herring when you’re trying to get into the sport, and you have to choose between real life essentials and skiing.

20. Loved the episode! In the next one, I would love to hear your takes on the the article Mind Your Manners by Aaron Rice from the latest Backcountry issue.

21. In reference to the other things folks may want to do while at a mountain town, thanks Cody for ‘building snow mans’. It’s the plural I didn’t know I needed in my life.

    That said, you’re absolutely spot on that the move to incentivize subscription skiing through absorbent day passes is contributory to the lack of growth in the sport. This is exponentially true for racialized folks to experience the additional hesitancy of “is this space safe for my family”.

    The show is a delight that I look forward to every month, thanks for letting me be listener #102.

22. Also, thank you for identifying our true domestic terrorist threat… pine martens

23. Remembering my girlfriend and me forgetting to put our skiboots (both pairs) in the car and coming back after a two hour drive there and back just seeing them at the parking in front of the house :))))